I think since profit is the goal of Capitalism it will always seek to cut costs and increase profits, this means there will always be an exploited group. Capitalism is also in bed with Colonialism and the result is a climate crisis and multiple genocides happening around the world increasing the profits of the western powers. I think the time for Capitalism and Colonialism to run their course has come and we need to seek a decolonized equitable system.
Love what you said about mother's and carers. I also think when profit is the goal a capitalist society maybe can't even function without exploited/underpaid/unpaid carers. Granting carers any sort of compensation or support then moves us more towards socialism.🤔
your point about exploitation rings very true. One of my sociology professors said our economy couldn't function with 100% employment. For him, it followed that the unemployed should be compensated for their role in the system. Carers could definitely fall into that category, too, though there is so much resistance to the idea.
It's an interesting thought experiment to imagine an economy that rewarded equality instead of undercutting other businesses through exploitation. Probably this would have to be achieved by regulation rather than appealing to consumer consciences?
This topic is incredibly interesting as the choice of economic systems is the driver that what makes life so different in various developed countries. No country is purely capitalist. Bezos may be powerful, but his company still has deal with "communism" (the right to unionize, workers' comp, social security, unemployment insurance, adherence to safety and environmental regulations, health insurance coverage, etc.). You mentioned two areas where the coverage is poor in the US: caring for children as parents and care for the elderly. But this is simply a choice made in the US to NOT support parents and care-givers. In most European countries, parents and care-givers are well covered through statutory paid maternity leave, subsidised day care, statutory paid parental leave after maternity benefits end (either mother or father can take leave), state supported drive-in or live-in care-giver for elderly, subsidised care homes, etc.. So the answer is not simply a choice between capitalism and communism, but rather how much do Americans want to be required by the state to share their good fortune with the more vulnerable and disadvantaged.
The following sounds like a good book on this topic; I know the author is a brilliant economist;
Joseph Stiglitz, People, Power, and Profits: Progressive Capitalism for an Age of Discontent
Very good points. Yes, I have friends in Spain who pay 100 Euro/month for full-time daycare. Costs in the Seattle area are about $2000 for this. I wonder how much of this "choice" by our government has to do with our particularly American brand of boot-strap, individualist Christianity.
Thanks for the recommendation! Putting in my To Be Read pile.
Yes, I think you are spot-on about the American brand of Christianity pushing for individualism/capitalism. But I don't think that Christianity in general would naturally push for capitalism. For example, most conservative Christians in Europe are certainly on the right on social policy (e.g., abortion, same-sex marriage) but tend toward the left on economic policy (higher taxes on the wealthy, support for immigrants, environment). As someone who has been unduly influenced by the American brand of Christianity, I find it refreshing to find conservative Christians who actually want to redistribute the wealth!
Capitalism is driving the world into environmental destruction. The sweeping changes required to avoid a climate catastrophe run against the grain of our existing profit-based economic model. And capitalists are those in position to shape and control our political discourse.
Through carbon emission we are heading towards an environmental catastrophe that will irreparably damage the natural world, destroy lives, and destabilise human society. To cut carbon emission levels by a sufficient amount, we must be prepared to change everything. In other words, we must think outside of the dominant economic and ideological model of free-market capitalism, outside of our carbon-intensive lifestyles, and also outside of our deeply-engrained cultural assumptions that we can control and exploit nature as an endless resource. What’s required, in effect, is a new world-view.
This is terrifying... because capitalism is so ingrained in us that it's hard to imagine an alternative. Some might suggest market socialism. I could not possibly comment.
Naomi Klein in This Changes Everything expresses this much better than I can here.
What we have in most cases now is a toxic form of capitalism. For some, there cannot be a non-toxic capitalism, just as for some, they cannot conceive of non-toxic masculinity, but I’m not sure about either.
In Simon Sinek’s Infinite Game, he suggests that the problem with capitalism is when it mistakes profit for purpose. He says that profit is always the fuel to achieve a purpose, never the purpose itself.
When profit becomes the purpose, it also becomes an idol, and begins a positive feedback loop which leads to the very unhealthy version of capitalism we are currently experiencing.
Idols always require a sacrifice, and the idol of profit may just require the sacrifice of the entire human race.
That is such an interesting idea that profit is a means to an end, not an end in itself. I wonder if there are any examples of this you or Sinek can point to? Maybe B-corporations? The bulk of our short-termist, shareholder-profit-maximizing capitalism certainly doesn't operate this way. It does feel idolatrous! Thanks for sharing these great ideas.
I think since profit is the goal of Capitalism it will always seek to cut costs and increase profits, this means there will always be an exploited group. Capitalism is also in bed with Colonialism and the result is a climate crisis and multiple genocides happening around the world increasing the profits of the western powers. I think the time for Capitalism and Colonialism to run their course has come and we need to seek a decolonized equitable system.
Love what you said about mother's and carers. I also think when profit is the goal a capitalist society maybe can't even function without exploited/underpaid/unpaid carers. Granting carers any sort of compensation or support then moves us more towards socialism.🤔
your point about exploitation rings very true. One of my sociology professors said our economy couldn't function with 100% employment. For him, it followed that the unemployed should be compensated for their role in the system. Carers could definitely fall into that category, too, though there is so much resistance to the idea.
It's an interesting thought experiment to imagine an economy that rewarded equality instead of undercutting other businesses through exploitation. Probably this would have to be achieved by regulation rather than appealing to consumer consciences?
This topic is incredibly interesting as the choice of economic systems is the driver that what makes life so different in various developed countries. No country is purely capitalist. Bezos may be powerful, but his company still has deal with "communism" (the right to unionize, workers' comp, social security, unemployment insurance, adherence to safety and environmental regulations, health insurance coverage, etc.). You mentioned two areas where the coverage is poor in the US: caring for children as parents and care for the elderly. But this is simply a choice made in the US to NOT support parents and care-givers. In most European countries, parents and care-givers are well covered through statutory paid maternity leave, subsidised day care, statutory paid parental leave after maternity benefits end (either mother or father can take leave), state supported drive-in or live-in care-giver for elderly, subsidised care homes, etc.. So the answer is not simply a choice between capitalism and communism, but rather how much do Americans want to be required by the state to share their good fortune with the more vulnerable and disadvantaged.
The following sounds like a good book on this topic; I know the author is a brilliant economist;
Joseph Stiglitz, People, Power, and Profits: Progressive Capitalism for an Age of Discontent
Very good points. Yes, I have friends in Spain who pay 100 Euro/month for full-time daycare. Costs in the Seattle area are about $2000 for this. I wonder how much of this "choice" by our government has to do with our particularly American brand of boot-strap, individualist Christianity.
Thanks for the recommendation! Putting in my To Be Read pile.
Yes, I think you are spot-on about the American brand of Christianity pushing for individualism/capitalism. But I don't think that Christianity in general would naturally push for capitalism. For example, most conservative Christians in Europe are certainly on the right on social policy (e.g., abortion, same-sex marriage) but tend toward the left on economic policy (higher taxes on the wealthy, support for immigrants, environment). As someone who has been unduly influenced by the American brand of Christianity, I find it refreshing to find conservative Christians who actually want to redistribute the wealth!
yes! It's almost like the early church sold everything they had and lived communally, haha
What do I feel about capitalism?
Capitalism is driving the world into environmental destruction. The sweeping changes required to avoid a climate catastrophe run against the grain of our existing profit-based economic model. And capitalists are those in position to shape and control our political discourse.
Through carbon emission we are heading towards an environmental catastrophe that will irreparably damage the natural world, destroy lives, and destabilise human society. To cut carbon emission levels by a sufficient amount, we must be prepared to change everything. In other words, we must think outside of the dominant economic and ideological model of free-market capitalism, outside of our carbon-intensive lifestyles, and also outside of our deeply-engrained cultural assumptions that we can control and exploit nature as an endless resource. What’s required, in effect, is a new world-view.
This is terrifying... because capitalism is so ingrained in us that it's hard to imagine an alternative. Some might suggest market socialism. I could not possibly comment.
Naomi Klein in This Changes Everything expresses this much better than I can here.
thanks for the recommendation. I agree it's astonishing to think of all the things that need to change to avert climate disaster.
What we have in most cases now is a toxic form of capitalism. For some, there cannot be a non-toxic capitalism, just as for some, they cannot conceive of non-toxic masculinity, but I’m not sure about either.
In Simon Sinek’s Infinite Game, he suggests that the problem with capitalism is when it mistakes profit for purpose. He says that profit is always the fuel to achieve a purpose, never the purpose itself.
When profit becomes the purpose, it also becomes an idol, and begins a positive feedback loop which leads to the very unhealthy version of capitalism we are currently experiencing.
Idols always require a sacrifice, and the idol of profit may just require the sacrifice of the entire human race.
That is such an interesting idea that profit is a means to an end, not an end in itself. I wonder if there are any examples of this you or Sinek can point to? Maybe B-corporations? The bulk of our short-termist, shareholder-profit-maximizing capitalism certainly doesn't operate this way. It does feel idolatrous! Thanks for sharing these great ideas.