That AHP post is still in my queue to read - my initial skim of the header made me think it was about income redistribution instead of traditional investment (which I *AM* very interested in), but clearly that's not the main point, haha.
SO many thoughts about budgeting. I can't imagine not tracking my money! (I am also a YNAB user). If you feel budgets are restrictive...then either your budget isn't right for you OR you're in a restrictive life situation (which is not the fault of the budget).
I've been thinking a lot lately about the power of structures to enable freedom -- and that only exists in a middle way between the extremes of too much structure (limiting) and too little (also limiting!). And recognizing when structure (or discipline) isn't the right solution because the problem is either systemic, or deeper than behavior (for example - a budget to a shopaholic feels like being sober to an alcoholic -- it's an important step, but without deeper recovery, it's not a full solution).
Oooh you make so many good points here! I especially like your point that structure has to find a middle ground, and not the solution to all problems. You've given me a lot to think about.
I have been watching the PBS series Opportunity Knocks-sort of a feel-good reality take on how people can overcome financial distress with proactive choices, and yes, budgeting. One of the coach-advisors described a budget as more a plan for the life and spending you want vis a vis emotional purchasing, or like your sweater example, the kinds of unconscious spending we do when we don’t have all the information. A budget is a presentation of information about what you have to work with financially; it shouldn’t be used as a guilting device
I love YNAB and have been using it for maybe close to ten years? Their concept of “give every dollar a job” was an effective mindset shift away from the crystal ball style of budgeting future dollars that don’t exist yet. It’s been a super flexible tool through years of self employment and income fluctuations.
Having a budgeting mindset has also helped me in my work (creating project budgets) and running a small business (keeping track of lean profit margins).
That being said, budgeting and restrictive spending are often weaponized against people living on low incomes, as if poor people could rise out of poverty if they were simply more responsible and spent less. This leads to a privileged mindset of determining who deserves help.
That's very true, about weaponizing budgets. It fits too neatly with the "bootstrap" mentality that EVERYONE can achieve all their financial goals without any structural reform.
Yes, Ramsey is charlatan. However, His phrase every dollar has a name has merit. I believe in trying to achieve balance in my life I find a simple plan in place whether it is exercising, eating. spending, playing pickleball helps me achieve that balance. I don't obsess about any plan but make an effort to get close.
Thanks for the spreadsheet reminder. I budgeted hard core for five years after college to pay off 100k in student loans. But once I achieved that I set myself free as a reward but that was like thirteen years ago. I think I’ve had enough of a celebration lol.
Congratulations, that's a huge lift! (And probably another sign that we need reform around student loans and college tuition.) I can imagine that took a lot of discipline, and afterwards letting loose felt like a necessary counterbalance. Maybe getting back into budgeting can be an opportunity to achieve your goals?
I read the budget culture post (I love Eckel’s newsletter) and I never quite got what she meant, and I did find the connection to diet culture tenuous. Her premise did not click with me.
(I’d love to know more about your cooling to Virginia’s work, as I have often felt she is held way too far up on a pedestal and is really out of touch with how a lot of people live….but overall fighting the good fight.)
We’ve been running a budget for years and my spreadsheet gets more and more elaborate, with color coding by month if we’re going over categories, that kind of stuff. But we love doing finances together and feel totally in control of our financial life. Wouldn’t trade it for the world.
I haven’t read the article you refer to, but my issue with budgeting is primarily philosophical - it implicitly assumes scarcity, whereas I try to hold a philosophy of abundance.
I also have, as Christine described, “a reactionary response against anything that feels restrictive” and the word “discipline” sends me into shivers from having people “who knew what was best for me” try to push me, a square peg, into a round hole for most of my life.
I now seek what Carl Rogers calls “an internal locus of evaluation” - taking information from outside sources but not external judgments. (Easier said than done I’d add - very much a work in progress)
You mention what might be called “weaponised budgeting” as a means to shame millennials/genZ for suffering from the structural inequalities ingrained in the system, which I still overhear from some boomers, ironically sitting in coffee shops sipping their own lattes.
There is a subtlety between a hipsters avocado toast and the hedonic treadmill, and I think we need to be able to recognise that both unsustainable hedonic spending and strict budgeting are both scarcity based approaches to life.
I think millennials and gen Z + are latte natives (like digital natives) compared to some Xers and definitely Boomers who only came to latte culture later in life when their disposable incomes were larger or more flexible; so it’s easy for oldsters to imagine that they earned their lattes ;) without understanding the integration of coffeehouses and work…That said I see a very close connection to the hedonistic treadmill in my own coffeehouse practices-an occasional 12oz splurge turns to a “need” for grande then the “deserving” of a pastry treat, and then lunch, or sweet plus savory and so on…watch out!!
ugh I feel you there! We had a whole argument with our kids this weekend because we told them they couldn't have a snack and a drink at the movie theater. It's easy to become entitled to treats.
I think your feelings about restrictions are pretty common, from what I hear. But I also think that life is made up of restrictions--a lot depends how we view these restrictions, perhaps? (i.e. restrictions as punishment vs. a necessity.)
I am interested in this concept of "an internal locus of evaluation"--I think this fits well with the idea of being intentional/accountable to one's self vs. adopting the values of the culture writ large.
I LOLed at your latte comment! Yes, it's still a thing. And I do love an occasional Starbucks, to be fair.
I appreciate your very smart take!! There does seem to be this sort of reactionary response against anything that feels restrictive (is that the best way to describe it?), but I think even the most liberal among us need to realize that some measure of, shall I say, discipline (!!) is actually healthy and good for us/good for the COMMUNITY!
(Also I’m curious on your feelings toward Sole-Smith because…I’ve felt the same way! Really rethought her messaging after initially liking it).
You raise a very good point about how restrictions are often tied to redeeming our supposed worthlessness in fundamentalist culture.
It can be really hard to sort through all the unhealthy views we inherited to sort out what's worth keeping. But I think recognizing where these beliefs come from and understanding our own emotional reactions is a huge step towards reclaiming our own values.
That AHP post is still in my queue to read - my initial skim of the header made me think it was about income redistribution instead of traditional investment (which I *AM* very interested in), but clearly that's not the main point, haha.
SO many thoughts about budgeting. I can't imagine not tracking my money! (I am also a YNAB user). If you feel budgets are restrictive...then either your budget isn't right for you OR you're in a restrictive life situation (which is not the fault of the budget).
I've been thinking a lot lately about the power of structures to enable freedom -- and that only exists in a middle way between the extremes of too much structure (limiting) and too little (also limiting!). And recognizing when structure (or discipline) isn't the right solution because the problem is either systemic, or deeper than behavior (for example - a budget to a shopaholic feels like being sober to an alcoholic -- it's an important step, but without deeper recovery, it's not a full solution).
Oooh you make so many good points here! I especially like your point that structure has to find a middle ground, and not the solution to all problems. You've given me a lot to think about.
I have been watching the PBS series Opportunity Knocks-sort of a feel-good reality take on how people can overcome financial distress with proactive choices, and yes, budgeting. One of the coach-advisors described a budget as more a plan for the life and spending you want vis a vis emotional purchasing, or like your sweater example, the kinds of unconscious spending we do when we don’t have all the information. A budget is a presentation of information about what you have to work with financially; it shouldn’t be used as a guilting device
I love YNAB and have been using it for maybe close to ten years? Their concept of “give every dollar a job” was an effective mindset shift away from the crystal ball style of budgeting future dollars that don’t exist yet. It’s been a super flexible tool through years of self employment and income fluctuations.
Having a budgeting mindset has also helped me in my work (creating project budgets) and running a small business (keeping track of lean profit margins).
That being said, budgeting and restrictive spending are often weaponized against people living on low incomes, as if poor people could rise out of poverty if they were simply more responsible and spent less. This leads to a privileged mindset of determining who deserves help.
That's very true, about weaponizing budgets. It fits too neatly with the "bootstrap" mentality that EVERYONE can achieve all their financial goals without any structural reform.
Yes, Ramsey is charlatan. However, His phrase every dollar has a name has merit. I believe in trying to achieve balance in my life I find a simple plan in place whether it is exercising, eating. spending, playing pickleball helps me achieve that balance. I don't obsess about any plan but make an effort to get close.
maybe "every dollar has a name" is similar to the YNAB philosophy "give every dollar a job"?
Thanks for the spreadsheet reminder. I budgeted hard core for five years after college to pay off 100k in student loans. But once I achieved that I set myself free as a reward but that was like thirteen years ago. I think I’ve had enough of a celebration lol.
Congratulations, that's a huge lift! (And probably another sign that we need reform around student loans and college tuition.) I can imagine that took a lot of discipline, and afterwards letting loose felt like a necessary counterbalance. Maybe getting back into budgeting can be an opportunity to achieve your goals?
I read the budget culture post (I love Eckel’s newsletter) and I never quite got what she meant, and I did find the connection to diet culture tenuous. Her premise did not click with me.
(I’d love to know more about your cooling to Virginia’s work, as I have often felt she is held way too far up on a pedestal and is really out of touch with how a lot of people live….but overall fighting the good fight.)
I'm working on a post about this next week! Yes Sole-Smith has built a cult following and I'm not sure it's entirely deserved.
We’ve been running a budget for years and my spreadsheet gets more and more elaborate, with color coding by month if we’re going over categories, that kind of stuff. But we love doing finances together and feel totally in control of our financial life. Wouldn’t trade it for the world.
yes, it can be very empowering to know what you're spending and be able to project your future savings!
I haven’t read the article you refer to, but my issue with budgeting is primarily philosophical - it implicitly assumes scarcity, whereas I try to hold a philosophy of abundance.
I also have, as Christine described, “a reactionary response against anything that feels restrictive” and the word “discipline” sends me into shivers from having people “who knew what was best for me” try to push me, a square peg, into a round hole for most of my life.
I now seek what Carl Rogers calls “an internal locus of evaluation” - taking information from outside sources but not external judgments. (Easier said than done I’d add - very much a work in progress)
You mention what might be called “weaponised budgeting” as a means to shame millennials/genZ for suffering from the structural inequalities ingrained in the system, which I still overhear from some boomers, ironically sitting in coffee shops sipping their own lattes.
There is a subtlety between a hipsters avocado toast and the hedonic treadmill, and I think we need to be able to recognise that both unsustainable hedonic spending and strict budgeting are both scarcity based approaches to life.
I think millennials and gen Z + are latte natives (like digital natives) compared to some Xers and definitely Boomers who only came to latte culture later in life when their disposable incomes were larger or more flexible; so it’s easy for oldsters to imagine that they earned their lattes ;) without understanding the integration of coffeehouses and work…That said I see a very close connection to the hedonistic treadmill in my own coffeehouse practices-an occasional 12oz splurge turns to a “need” for grande then the “deserving” of a pastry treat, and then lunch, or sweet plus savory and so on…watch out!!
ugh I feel you there! We had a whole argument with our kids this weekend because we told them they couldn't have a snack and a drink at the movie theater. It's easy to become entitled to treats.
PS I’m a fan of discipline, but it’s because I see disciplines as rhythms, practices, intentionality rather than restrictive “thou shalt not”s
this is a great way of framing it!
I think your feelings about restrictions are pretty common, from what I hear. But I also think that life is made up of restrictions--a lot depends how we view these restrictions, perhaps? (i.e. restrictions as punishment vs. a necessity.)
I am interested in this concept of "an internal locus of evaluation"--I think this fits well with the idea of being intentional/accountable to one's self vs. adopting the values of the culture writ large.
I LOLed at your latte comment! Yes, it's still a thing. And I do love an occasional Starbucks, to be fair.
I appreciate your very smart take!! There does seem to be this sort of reactionary response against anything that feels restrictive (is that the best way to describe it?), but I think even the most liberal among us need to realize that some measure of, shall I say, discipline (!!) is actually healthy and good for us/good for the COMMUNITY!
(Also I’m curious on your feelings toward Sole-Smith because…I’ve felt the same way! Really rethought her messaging after initially liking it).
I think you hit the nail on the head. Is it American culture to go from Puritanical strictness to complete lack of boundaries?
I'm working on a post about Sole-Smith and restrictions for next week!
You raise a very good point about how restrictions are often tied to redeeming our supposed worthlessness in fundamentalist culture.
It can be really hard to sort through all the unhealthy views we inherited to sort out what's worth keeping. But I think recognizing where these beliefs come from and understanding our own emotional reactions is a huge step towards reclaiming our own values.